Thanx,
Jack

Were your spin on 1 Jn 2:2 correct, it’d prove too much: Christ paid for all the sins of all men? ALL? Then all would be saved.

Unless this were only a POTENTIAL atonement, made effectual only upon one’s perseverance (Rome), or ‘yieldedness’ (pietism), or your free will decision to ask Jesus into your heart (Arminianism: faith preceding regeneration).

Does Lutheranism posit that Christ died for all mankind but only offers salvation, never effects it?!

So much for ‘by grace alone thru faith alone’ – your salvation hinges on some work you or a pastor must do: a free will decision (a work), or baptism (sacerdotalism). But that’d go against Romans 4, etc.

Under your take on 1 Jn 2:2, either all mankind are saved, or man must do something to make his salvation sure & complete.

Actually, Christ died to save his people from their sins (Mt 1:21 ~ no mere attempt made!), he laid down his life for his sheep (Jn 10:11, 15, 25-29 ~ no atonement for goats!), and God will save ALL whom he elects thereunto: Eph 1:4-5, 11; 2 Pe 3:9.

‘The Lord…is patient toward you, not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.’ Peter writes to believers, the elect (1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1), not the world. All of them will; not any will be lost.

This is the way in which God loves the world: that whoever believes in the Son will not perish, but has everlasting life.

“1 John 2:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. ”

Lutheranism has always stood on the Scriptural paradox that God alone grants faith and regenerates, ‘absolutely sovereign in salvation’ as you put it, and also holds individuals responsible for rejecting His Son. We reject limited atonement on the basis of the text of Scripture and do not muck around trying to cram the scriptures into a logical system that skews the plain meaning of the words.

Charlie

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:10-11 ESV)

You don’t need to be a Lutheran to believe that!

And I might add that Luther himself taught the doctrine of the bondage of the will and that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. If God determines who is elect, then He is not so stupid as to not know whom He has passed over.

God is God and man is not. He will save who He chooses to save. And how can you know if you’re saved? The same as before, “Call on His name!”

Charlie

“It’s that fear of “if I admit my struggles (seeing how no one else seems to and coupled with ‘I’ve had tons of ‘do’ advice’) then I would reveal that I’m really not born again, converted, saved, elect, predestined” It’s like, I think you’ll understand this, “I know what the result and answer will be and I just don’t think I can take it”.”

Bingo!

What would the answer have been if I had told someone straight out that I wasn’t sure whether I was saved? “Well, just make sure of your salvation by accepting Jesus into your heart again” or “really surrender your life to God.” The problem was that I had tried that so many times before and it didn’t work. I was afraid that the reason it didn’t work was because I had hardened my heart to the point where I was beyond repentance.

I would flat out lie to people when they asked me whether I was sure I was going to heaven, rather than admit any kind of doubt. Hearing as a nine- or ten-year-old child “If you’re not 100% sure that you’re saved, you’re probably not” (which is an exact quote) made me keep silent about my doubts for years and years.

When I finally did express my anxieties (in a somewhat indirect way), I was always referred either to my decision or my commitment or my works, the very fact that I was worried about my salvation, or how much I loved God/His Word/etc. But they could only see the outside of me. They couldn’t see the awfulness inside of me.

All this makes me wonder how many other people suffer in silence like we did, too afraid to say anything. On the outside they look like reasonably happy and contented Christians and on the inside they are on the verge of despair. For most of my life, “accepting Jesus as your personal Savior” or “making a commitment to Christ” WAS the Gospel. I knew nothing different. To reject this was to reject the Gospel. I figured the problem was with me, not with the theology, when in reality it was the opposite.

Blessings,
Dawn

I’ve been waiting to hear part two and it did not disappoint. Believe me when I say and I’m not exaggerating one iota; I could sign this part two with my name and it would be 100% my own journey. You speak the same internalized language I did, my wife could verify it for you.

Again a few select key quotes that literally bring back all those not so long ago memories (I KNOW what you are saying when you say them):

“Christian Hedonism… I did too at first. And then it became the most terrifying
Law”

Same thing, at first I thought “this is what I’m looking for” but then the “did I really love God that much” came about seeing I still so struggle with sin. Outwardly I had “strength” to make a good show of it, but I could detect my heart’s inward motives. The more good I did the more I could both feel my heart not “really into it”, it was forced per se. Couple that with election and believers only baptism and the hell of it all is soon to follow.

“Because you love God. Because you find your satisfaction in God. Because you find your joy in God… But if God truly regenerates you then these things will be true of you”

Dr. Rosenbladt, whom I had found via the WHI pulled me out of this hole once. It was during the apex of my utter despair when daily I’d given up hope that I was reborn truly, saved, converted, elect, predestined…I was literally daily fighting jumping off of a cliff so deep and dark was the despair. The only thing that staved me off was a hopeless last hope of, “Well if I am destine to reprobation, why rush off to the gallows”. At times though it seemed better to do that than not know. He quoted Lewis for me on this to show me it was all law. Something like this; “CS Lewis once said that there is a sure fire way to make someone not be joyful. That way? Tell them to be more joyful.” That hit home crystal clear for me and I saw the Law in it. Apply, later on for me, baptism per Luther and I PROMISE you that ever elusive joyfulness…then it comes…via the Gospel!

“and I ended up wondering if I was one of those false believers who were predestined to go to hell”

I lived in that state day and night, in agony every waking hour, literally, ever increasing from around my conversion time in 97 to somewhere around 04. That’s when I stumbled on to WHI and Dr. Rosenbladt. When I read my first book by Luther, his commentary on Galatians…I devoured it and thought…this is a different religion than I’d learned.

“on the verge of utter despair”
Utter, shear, total, undiluted and a ton of adjective of similar quality with “despair”!

“I had thought in my heart but had been too afraid to say out loud for fear of being seen as heretical”

I’ve always had a fondness for Michael Spencer for that very reason. He lives in the same state that I do, though we’ve never met formerly. I’m not sure what county he lives in now but I think we are relatively close by.

Anyway, you are the first person beside myself I’ve heard state that openly. Its that fear of “if I admit my struggles (seeing how no one else seems to and coupled with ‘I’ve had tons of ‘do’ advice’) then I would reveal that I’m really not born again, converted, saved, elect, predestined” It’s like, I think you’ll understand this, “I know what the result and answer will be and I just don’t think I can take it”. I found myself afraid to ask anymore about baptism or the Lord’s Supper for fear of either being seen as falling for heresy or getting more of the advice that was terrifying me. One of my former pastors when I asked, “How do you know you are a Christian, truly reborn and elect”, he said, “The sign is love”. THAT was like, “here let me help you”, and then they push you off of the cliff!

Where this hit me also was seeing the freeness of Luther because of the Gospel (Christian freedom), you are so afraid of the freedom and it being “well sure I’ll bet you would like the Gospel to be that good…what criminal wouldn’t” that you say to yourself, “THAT can’t be the Gospel”. At first Luther is looked at as suspiciously looking like, “Well he just caved in to his own desires…no wonder he says what he says”.

“Christ died for YOUR sins” – because it might not really be true”

That is where it goes. My closest Baptist friend and pastor, still, he and I use to get wrapped around the axle (and that is putting it lightly) of just how to present the Gospel because you didn’t want to make someone “falsely believe” that it might not be true for them. So you had to come up with some kind of deal closer that showed they did, but then ‘how could you be sure seeing anyone can fool anyone including themselves’. It was ironically my doing a lot of “evangelism” door to door per those doctrines and such that began to make me question my own salvation, rebirth, election or conversion. I thought quietly in my mind, “How do I know for myself…”. What’s sauce for goose is sauce for the gander as they say.

I’ve treasured reading your journey!

Yours truly,

Larry